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steevy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LEDs may be used as a warning that they will be tased if they continue."Uh oh,the cop turned on his gun".If not they could simply be ready lights so the officer know's his secondary weapon is functioning properly.Think about it,most police forces carry a taser on the offhand and a pistol on their strongside,it makes great sense to replace two weapons with one.The police officers in the movie all carry the same weapon as Deckard and Holden(yeah,they probably didn't bother to design and build another prop type) and this gives a good reason for it.
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DannyinTexas
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was there any mention of a cylinder in the book or film?
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racprops
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the book hardly said anything about the weapon...

And it is not shown waywhere in the film that I can find, nor are we shown him changing the mag either...

BUT it clearly shows the budges of the covers that hide the cylinder and we know the real gun has it.

And if it was to be a ray gun they could/would have added the laser/phaser beam...

So it was a slug thrower of some kind.

Rich
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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rich - good to interact with you in this thread, and thanks for the constructive critique of my theory! Smile

To reply point by point:

racprops wrote:
I like parts, and dislike parts, I think it is a little over complex, and lots of super small and complex electronics….

Well, with 7 LEDs and exposed wiring on the hero prop, it already seems over complex, compared, say to an Aliens Pulse Rifle or Logan's Run pistol, both of which had electronics, but no indicator LEDs (aside from the Pulse Rifle's digital counter). So I just went ahead and built a functional and practical theory around them. I may have gotten carried away with the electromagnetic loading & advancing system, but when you think of it, having the upper receiver and lower ammo clip would require a complex mechanical loading/ejecting mechanism that would simply be too intricate for such a compact structure. The nice thing about electromagnetic translation is that there are no springs or moving parts - it's basically a tiny linear accelerator and a maybe a couple of mini solenoids. Since the propellant pellets are non-metallic, a linear accelerator would require an internal magnetizable truck to deliver the pellet from the open port to the storage chamber & back again for ejecting unspent pellets.

As for the acquisition & targetting sensors and protocols, again, my theory takes into account the fact that this blaster is designed to take down replicants, and Tyrell already built fail-safe featurs into them like the 4-year life span. Since the Nexus 6 models were developed to serve military needs, they HAD to have been co-developed with the military, so replicant-defeating fail safes and "friend-or-foe" mechanisms make perfect sense. We already have biometric car door, gun, and laptop locks, and quadraplegics can already control computer cursors with their alpha brain waves, so in 10 years these scanning and tracking systems seem very likely. Besides, you have to really get creative when assigning functionality & purpose to that upper-receiver antenna, the bi-directional green LEDs on the LHS, and front-facing windage knob on the RHS.

Quote:
On the other hand the front of the Steyr which is cup shaped could be the sensor/antenna…

Cool! Very Happy It always reminded me a bit of the Enterprise forward deflector array anyway...

Quote:
I would think self guided rounds a little farfetched but a go/no-go firing system I can go for…He can shoot if he has a clear shot…

Hey, modern Precision Guided Munition fired from rifled or smooth bore artillery barrels has been around for decades. Check out this Wikipedia article:

Quote:
A Cannon Launched Guided Projectile (CLGP), a precursor to modern PGMs, is fired from artillery, ship's cannon, or armored vehicle. Several agencies and organizations sponsored CLGP programs. The United States Navy sponsored the "Deadeye" program, a laser-guided shell for its 5" guns[15] and a program to mate a Paveway guidance system to an 8" shell[16] for the 8"/55 caliber Mark 71 gun in the 1970s (Photo). Other Navy efforts include the BTERM, ERGM, and LRLAP shells.

The U.S. Army's MGM-51 Shillelagh missile can be considered a type of CLGP. Intended for use on the M551 Sheridan light tank, the Shillelagh missile was fired out of the Sheridan's cannon to provide robust anti-tank capability. The Army's M712 Copperhead laser guided artillery round was used in Desert Storm. Army CLGPs include the M982 Excalibur 155mm artillery shell, the XM395 Precision Guided Mortar Munition, and the XM1156 Precision Guidance Kit to refit existing 155mm shells with precision guidance, as the Air Force's JDAM program converts dumb bombs into precision munitions.


Plus you have wire-guided anti-tank missiles (TOW, Dragon, etc.), air-to-air, and surface-to-air missiles (heat-seaking & radar guided), also around for decades. So to think that guidance systems can be miniaturized for pistol calibers by 2019 is not that farfetched. In fact, the patent for a laser-guided bullet was granted in 1998 and the patent for a radar-guided bullet was granted in 2006 - see this fascinating article:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/06/laser-guided-bu/

Quote:
They already have a rifle that can be ranged to explode a round at a preset distance, so rounds that could take the range and 3 inches (to insure being inside the target) could be done by then…


You mean like a bunker-buster? I'd love to get a link for that info - might help me fine-tune my theory! Very Happy It sounds a lot like a timer delayed-ignition fuse, which is also used in field artillery to prevent premature detonation when the shell flies low over mountains that shield the artillery battery, after which a tiny sub-millimeter radar fuse activates and detonates the shell's explosive when it measures a distance of 10 feet above the ground (for the purpose of defeating entrenched infantry). This and other artillery proximity and target-sensing fuses can be read about here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_fuze

Quote:
Poison Rounds..works for me…fits the facts.

Cool! Very Happy

Quote:
Rachel was right behind Leon when she shot him not across the street if I remember right…or fairly close so it was not so much a super shot.

Doh! Of course you're right - I had a brain-fart posting so early in the AM... Then again, she'd never fired a gun in her short replicant life, and Tyrell's niece certainly never had weapons training, lol. Interestingly, she only hit Leon with a glancing shot, causing minimal frontal lobe damage. From what I understand about brain injuries, Leon should have remained functional and alert, unless shell shrapnel ricocheted into his skull and diced up the rest of his gray matter! But if you go along with my neorotoxin theory, even a glancing shot would have been fatal to a replicant, since the poison made direct contact with his brain. Remember how he jerked his head after being hit and then stiffened and fell over? Instant neuroxin-induced paralysis, baby!

Quote:
The idea of only four rounds works when you do not know about the cylinder in the Bulldog…and I like the idea that the four LEDs are tells and show if a round is used…

Cool! Smile

Quote:
But with the cylinder I like the idea of 5 rounds in it and 5 to 10 in the mag..giving you the best of both worlds. A autoreloading revolver.

LEDs could show for every two round used, so the Mag holds eight reloads, making the total thirteen rounds...

My 2 cents worth.

Rich

Not sure I’d buy the concept of LEDs counting pairs of rounds – too much arithmetic to do when you’re in a life & death situation… But I do really like the clip-fed auto-loading revolver cylinder idea, which would make perfect sense if the “real world” blaster had an internal cylinder that did not swing out. The only problem I have with an internal cylinder is what happens if there’s a jam or a dud round in the cylinder? It would be a pain in the ass to develop an ejector ram or front-extracting mechanism – there’s just no space… Perhaps a solenoid behind the cylinder that pops out the round after you remove the clip. Still, too many steps to go through while you’re under fire.

Once again, I really appreciate your valued comments – you pretty much wrote The Book on this prop! Think of my theory as the New Testament, lol!

D
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racprops
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rich - good to interact with you in this thread, and thanks for the constructive critique of my theory!

I agree these can be a lot of fun if no one get upset and enjoys arm chair quarter backing things.


To reply point by point:
racprops wrote:
I like parts, and dislike parts, I think it is a little over complex, and lots of super small and complex electronics….

Well, with 7 LEDs and exposed wiring on the hero prop, it already seems over complex, compared, say to an Aliens Pulse Rifle or Logan's Run pistol, both of which had electronics, but no indicator LEDs (aside from the Pulse Rifle's digital counter). So I just went ahead and built a functional and practical theory around them. I may have gotten carried away with the electromagnetic loading & advancing system, but when you think of it, having the upper receiver and lower ammo clip would require a complex mechanical loading/ejecting mechanism that would simply be too intricate for such a compact structure. The nice thing about electromagnetic translation is that there are no springs or moving parts - it's basically a tiny linear accelerator and a maybe a couple of mini solenoids. Since the propellant pellets are non-metallic, a linear accelerator would require an internal magnetizable truck to deliver the pellet from the open port to the storage chamber & back again for ejecting unspent pellets.


Say that was what I said…it pushes the round into a empty chamber, but if a round misfires and is still there a sensor will hold back the loading so you do not jam it .

That was why the LEDs would be important enough to risk then. Also these would only give you away from the side, they did not pint forward, a flashlight clip to a gun does that far more…

I always felt night vision glasses and a night vision laser or infer-red system invisible to the bad guys makes much more sense…


As for the acquisition & targetting sensors and protocols, again, my theory takes into account the fact that this blaster is designed to take down replicants, and Tyrell already built fail-safe featurs into them like the 4-year life span. Since the Nexus 6 models were developed to serve military needs, they HAD to have been co-developed with the military, so replicant-defeating fail safes and "friend-or-foe" mechanisms make perfect sense. We already have biometric car door, gun, and laptop locks, and quadraplegics can already control computer cursors with their alpha brain waves, so in 10 years these scanning and tracking systems seem very likely. Besides, you have to really get creative when assigning functionality & purpose to that upper-receiver antenna, the bi-directional green LEDs on the LHS, and front-facing windage knob on the RHS.

I do like these ideas…you have taken it a couple of steps farther that we did…


Quote:
On the other hand the front of the Steyr which is cup shaped could be the sensor/antenna…

Cool! It always reminded me a bit of the Enterprise forward deflector array anyway...
Quote:
I would think self guided rounds a little farfetched but a go/no-go firing system I can go for…He can shoot if he has a clear shot…

Hey, modern Precision Guided Munition fired from rifled or smooth bore artillery barrels has been around for decades. Check out this Wikipedia article:
Quote:
A Cannon Launched Guided Projectile (CLGP), a precursor to modern PGMs, is fired from artillery, ship's cannon, or armored vehicle. Several agencies and organizations sponsored CLGP programs. The United States Navy sponsored the "Deadeye" program, a laser-guided shell for its 5" guns[15] and a program to mate a Paveway guidance system to an 8" shell[16] for the 8"/55 caliber Mark 71 gun in the 1970s (Photo). Other Navy efforts include the BTERM, ERGM, and LRLAP shells.

The U.S. Army's MGM-51 Shillelagh missile can be considered a type of CLGP. Intended for use on the M551 Sheridan light tank, the Shillelagh missile was fired out of the Sheridan's cannon to provide robust anti-tank capability. The Army's M712 Copperhead laser guided artillery round was used in Desert Storm. Army CLGPs include the M982 Excalibur 155mm artillery shell, the XM395 Precision Guided Mortar Munition, and the XM1156 Precision Guidance Kit to refit existing 155mm shells with precision guidance, as the Air Force's JDAM program converts dumb bombs into precision munitions.


Plus you have wire-guided anti-tank missiles (TOW, Dragon, etc.), air-to-air, and surface-to-air missiles (heat-seaking & radar guided), also around for decades. So to think that guidance systems can be miniaturized for pistol calibers by 2019 is not that farfetched. In fact, the patent for a laser-guided bullet was granted in 1998 and the patent for a radar-guided bullet was granted in 2006 - see this fascinating article:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/06/laser-guided-bu/
Quote:
They already have a rifle that can be ranged to explode a round at a preset distance, so rounds that could take the range and 3 inches (to insure being inside the target) could be done by then…


You mean like a bunker-buster? I'd love to get a link for that info - might help me fine-tune my theory! It sounds a lot like a timer delayed-ignition fuse, which is also used in field artillery to prevent premature detonation when the shell flies low over mountains that shield the artillery battery, after which a tiny sub-millimeter radar fuse activates and detonates the shell's explosive when it measures a distance of 10 feet above the ground (for the purpose of defeating entrenched infantry). This and other artillery proximity and target-sensing fuses can be read about here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_fuze

I saw it on one of the cable channels like History channel, Future Weapons... it is a small M16 Like rifle, with a range finder scope, you use it and then select how farther you want it to go before deploying, like into a room though a window and plus say 3 feet and bang all fall down. So this was small round not a artillery shell or missile.


Quote:
Poison Rounds..works for me…fits the facts.

Cool!
Quote:
Rachel was right behind Leon when she shot him not across the street if I remember right…or fairly close so it was not so much a super shot.

Doh! Of course you're right - I had a brain-fart posting so early in the AM... Then again, she'd never fired a gun in her short replicant life, and Tyrell's niece certainly never had weapons training, lol. Interestingly, she only hit Leon with a glancing shot, causing minimal frontal lobe damage. From what I understand about brain injuries, Leon should have remained functional and alert, unless shell shrapnel ricocheted into his skull and diced up the rest of his gray matter! But if you go along with my neorotoxin theory, even a glancing shot would have been fatal to a replicant, since the poison made direct contact with his brain. Remember how he jerked his head after being hit and then stiffened and fell over? Instant neuroxin-induced paralysis, baby!

I think she shot him in the back of the head and the front was what exploded into Deckard’s face, and again it was very low gore, but I felt that was because it was made in 1982…it should have splatter all over Deckard’s front.

Quote:
The idea of only four rounds works when you do not know about the cylinder in the Bulldog…and I like the idea that the four LEDs are tells and show if a round is used…

Cool!
Quote:
But with the cylinder I like the idea of 5 rounds in it and 5 to 10 in the mag..giving you the best of both worlds. A autoreloading revolver.

LEDs could show for every two round used, so the Mag holds eight reloads, making the total thirteen rounds...

My 2 cents worth.

Rich

Not sure I’d buy the concept of LEDs counting pairs of rounds – too much arithmetic to do when you’re in a life & death situation…

Not any harder that a good shooter counting his rounds in his head, again life and death baby, count them or die….


But I do really like the clip-fed auto-loading revolver cylinder idea, which would make perfect sense if the “real world” blaster had an internal cylinder that did not swing out.

Oh it can swing out, so you can preload it with 5 rounds and have your plus 8 in the mag, just like pre-chambering a round in a auto…



The only problem I have with an internal cylinder is what happens if there’s a jam or a dud round in the cylinder?


A jam would be rare, and a failed to fire round so deadly in the early M16, that men threw down the M16 and picked up AK47s, is no problem in a revolver, just pull the trigger again…and a dud that does not clear the barrel is no problem as it is loose so the next round can just push it out as well, no deadly blowback either…

The only malfunction would be a round that gets caught in the bleach, between the cylinder and the barrel stopping turning of the cylinder, there you hit the cylinder centering knob with the heel of your hand and then swing the weapon hard to allow centrifugal force to swing/fling the round either down barrel or clear out…then re-aim and pull the trigger again..easier or as easy as clearing a stove pipe jam.


It would be a pain in the ass to develop an ejector ram or front-extracting mechanism – there’s just no space… Perhaps a solenoid behind the cylinder that pops out the round after you remove the clip. Still, too many steps to go through while you’re under fire.

See above...


Once again, I really appreciate your valued comments – you pretty much wrote The Book on this prop! Think of my theory as the New Testament, lol!


As I like your ideas and improvements… I think we are coming up with the final word on the make believe part of this weapon…

Rich

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DannyinTexas
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The advanced grenade ordinance you guys are talking to was developed in the late 80s and 90s. It does even more tricks than you mentioned, but at an individual weapon cost around $32,000, it's not a practical choice right now.

I personally don't see any need to be restricted to the cylinder concept since the gun as it existed in the movie has no cylinder. The cylinder was just part of the pieces used to construct the prop. There are a dozen ways to design a weapon like this. Caseless makes it 13. Look at the mechanism of the G11 or the KRISS smg. There are all kinds of ways to get the job done.

My component gas design gives you 5 or 6 times the capacity of your cylinder-base design. (I estimate 24 rounds per mag.)
Imagine a paintball gun. You have propulsion (gas) separate from the projectile. Now imagine that the paintball itself provides propulsion when exposed to a tiny amount of the gas. - You'd get thousands of rounds from a can of gas rather than hundreds.

If you need some kind of extra punch, you could always hit the back of the round as it leaves the muzzle with a laser that ignites a white phosphorous core inside the bullet.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again I did say if you’re going with a fantasy weapon and disregard the details of the real prop anything is possible.

I was trying to deal with what I have in hand, and up close it is still a Charter Arms 44 Bulldog with a Steyr Receiver on top.

So we tried to make some sense of those nutty parts working together.

Rich
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Staar
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A GREAT and intelligent debate gentlemen many thanks because its blown some fresh air into the topic - which is always wonderful.

Personally I don't have a problem with either opinion and in all honesty even a compromise between the reality of modern weaponry and the conceptual world of Sci-Fi might be an option after all, BR has proven time and time again that the vision Scott had while making the movie has proven to be true in many respects..

Like other members here I have carried and been involved with weapons for decades and so the points raised in this thread make for really interesting reading..

Many thanks and best to you all..

MARK
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andy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of going into a totally new concept for this gun. We have been stuck with the idea of the internal revolver for a like close to 13 years now. In the book (and scripts) it was only called a laser. In the movie they played around with the concept of a "black hole gun". I think if we can keep the concepts to both what we see in the movie and real weapons technology, even if it is only in prototype stage, we could end up creating the new standard for the gun. All in all I am loving what I am hearing here. It is great to see people using their imaginations again. It is what makes this stuff fun.

Andy
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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind words, Andy & Mark!

I'd like to respond to Danny:

DannyinTexas wrote:
The advanced grenade ordinance you guys are talking to was developed in the late 80s and 90s. It does even more tricks than you mentioned, but at an individual weapon cost around $32,000, it's not a practical choice right now.

Actually, the Israelis and Americans have been using "smart fuses" and the US-made Copperhead on their M109 155mm howitzers in the field since the early 80s (the Israelis in actual combat, the US only in training & testing), and even back then those fuses were under $8,000, not as much as what you posted - unless you're referring to something else? Also keep in mind that as technology advances and production methods become more automated & economical, mass-producing small caliber smart rounds would not be cost-prohibitive, especially with government military budgets behind it, not profit margins. If NASA had been conceived as a for-profit enterprise, it would have been shut down back in the 60s... And let's not forget - we're talking about specialty munitions for a very special kind of unit and target, where money is no object. As Bryant famously said:

Quote:
No sir. Not embarrassing, because no one's ever going to find out they're down here. 'Cause you're gonna spot 'em and you're gonna air 'em out!

Besides, they assigned a Nexus 7 (or whatever) in the form of Rick Deckard to hunt them down - I won't even start guessing what it cost Tyrell and/or the government to grow, program, condition, house, equip, and manage him - and he was EXPENDABLE!

Quote:
My component gas design gives you 5 or 6 times the capacity of your cylinder-base design. (I estimate 24 rounds per mag.)
Imagine a paintball gun. You have propulsion (gas) separate from the projectile. Now imagine that the paintball itself provides propulsion when exposed to a tiny amount of the gas. - You'd get thousands of rounds from a can of gas rather than hundreds.

Very true, but let's keep in mind that paintball guns are designed for rapid fire, low velocity, non-lethal munitions, and prolonged use in the field, where access to replacement ammo and propellant is remote at best. The Rep-Detect unit doesn't storm fortified positions in squad or platoon strength or require a shotgun approach, so large-capacity weapons are not warranted. I'm just following the Real World trend of "more accurate, more deadly, & more costly" vs. blind aerial carpet bombing and dumb ballistic munitions.

Quote:
If you need some kind of extra punch, you could always hit the back of the round as it leaves the muzzle with a laser that ignites a white phosphorous core inside the bullet.

Since when does white phosphorous act as a propellant? Its only purpose is to illuminate tracer rounds and as incendiary, marker, & smoke munitions. This requires a longer shell, thus reducing the effective range of the bullet, i.e. less punch. Your proposition also requires the laser to hit the back of the bullet after it exits the barrel. If it's mounted on top or to the side, how is that even possible? And assuming the blaster had enough juice to power a laser capable of heating the tiny white phosphorous target area at the rear of the shell, would it have time to reach the 97 degrees F required to ignite it? In tracer rounds, the heat from the gunpowder combustion ignites it, but again - only for illumination and targetting purposes, not propulsion. The only exception I can think of is if the phosphorous is there to burn a more combustible material that converts to gas, which is then compressed and expelled through a jet nozzle, thus increasing the shell's velocity. But then you run into the problem of how do you ignite the phosphorous behind a tiny nozzle aperature? Laser or no laser, close to impossible, unless ignited from within.
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joberg
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting and intelligent discussion gentlemen! Just to show you that there's a world of possibility between the practical weapon (film) and a real life one...and I agree that the mechanical would be replaced by the electronics in that type of gun (and way of firing/speed/target/type of rounds, etc). Keep up the good work folks Cool
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DannyinTexas
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was referring to the "new" individual weapons - rifles - they are basically a functional version of the M41A pulse rifles from Aliens2. These are the units that, I believe, were estimated at $32,000.00 each.

CORRECTION: I couldn't remember the name of the weapon, but I just figured it out - The XM29 is the "pulse rifle," but has been discontinued for whatever reasons. (It only threw standard grenades and bullets.)



This is the newer, now being fielded, XM25. It's est. cost is $25,000.00 (maybe they found a way to make it cheaper) For now, this weapon only throws grenades, but they are the very smart grenades we were talking about.




The paintball example was just an explanation of the economy of a component system. The capacity depends ultimately on the size of the projectile and if the bullets were HUGE, then the component system might be a necessity if you want more than 3 rounds.

White phosphorus does not act as a propellant. (Sorry if you got that impression) It acts as a kind of incendiary, burning flesh long after the bullet has done it's kinetic damage.
If the core of the bullet is WP, (or some other chemical, WP is just an example) there is no change to the size of anything.
Caseless ammo has no shell. It is not only possible to hit the back of the bullet with a laser, it's being done in the field right now.

You might want to also look into the state of small-lasers. They have one now that will burn flesh on contact (smoked and charred)
http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Spyder_III_Pro_Arctic_Series-96-37.html More than enough to ignite some kind of chemical inside the round.
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hirohawa
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is cool! Thanks for posting those new weapons!
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steevy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simplicity in a weapon is a good thing.The more simple the weapon the more "idiot proof" it is in use.Nothing is simpler than a revolver,police only moved away from the simple revolver because criminals were outgunning them with high capacity autos.My idea includes the simplicity of a revolver firing a very modern(at the time the BR movie came out still futuristic)concept,caseless ammunition.The secondary rounds would probably use a railgun type system to propel them.The difference is they would be propelled only at low velocities,the effect of the projectile would be provided by it's special nature(tasr,explosive etc).The idea of the two ammo types available in one weapon is very attractive,as many police departments now carry taser and pistol.In one case a death occurred because the officer was holding his pistol but thought he was holding his taser.My idea is simplicity with a technological twist.The police officer always has his simple,reliable slug thrower available if all else fails.The bolt would be opened for reloading (the secondary)and also to clear the barrel of a projectile that failed to fire from the secondary.I also like the idea that "retiring"androids and later replicants was not a need that was forseen.Therefore early police faced with the situation improvised and looked around and finally came up with a solution that was in front of them the entire time.The reason I decided to include charger loading through the top is twofold 1/it pprovides a good reason for the bolt to exist2/it was an idiosyncrasy of early Steyr automatics to do so.Check out the picture of a Roth-Steyr model 1907.
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joberg
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course simplicity is the holly grail in weaponry and the design/engineering of such weapon is very complicated. I'll always prefer mechanical over electronical any day, only because the weapon can be repaired readily using fairly simple machines/tricks that still makes it do its job.
On another topic; the combining of gun+Taser would be a good idea, but as mentioned above, you'll have to make sure that your finger is on the right trigger for the situation at hand Wink
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racprops
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And we can even wish for a Star Trek Phaser...light stun, heavy stun, heat, kill and dissinagate...

Tight beam, or wide beam, even stun a whole room beam...

Rich
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remarkable interesting discussion, I just wanted to introduce one small interesting fact the original Styer had an auto load revolving magazine, which meant that you loaded a magazine into the ammo box, fired your shots and then ejected the whole 'clip' magazine and loaded a fresh one, I do think the idea of two different types of ammunition using one common barrel is an interesting one and the mechanics do seem feasible.
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racprops
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Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2450
Location: Phoenix AZ

PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it is a spring driven revolving mag holding I believe is 5 rounds, much as does many bolt action rifles that are carrying more than one round.

But the term auto is incorrect, it is no more auto that any other bolt action rifle, you have to run the bolt by hand and cycle it to unload the spent cartilage and strip off and load to battery a new round.

And M15 or M1 does the action due to blow back gases that power their bolt to cycle the bolt and load the new round and are then called semi auto.

Auto or Full Auto fires as long as you hold the trigger…

All of these use a Magazine with springs to present a new round for loading when needed…

Rich
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steevy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My concept would involve an electric motor feeding the rounds not a spring or bolt action.The bolt can be opened to expose the loading gate or to remove a misfire.Clip or charger loading through the open action was the most common loading method for military repeaters for 50 years or more.Lee Enfields had a removable magazine but soldiers were only issued one and it was not considered disposable.5 round cahargers were used to load it through the action(2 in the case of the LE which had a 10 round capacity,most contemporaries had 5).The Schoenaur type magazine was used in many Steyr sporting rifles but not military ones to my knowledge.It could be charger loaded from the top ,the rounds were just stored differently,rotary box rather than a single or double row box.I like the idea of the 5+5 configuration because not only was that the actual capacity of the magazines used in the prop but it seems like the right number for a round of about 11mm or .44 cal.I wish I had the skill to do technical drawings because the whole thing is clear in my mind.Maybe someone like Noeland can give it a try.He did some great alternate designs that look like they could have competed with the Steyr as service pistols.Here's a Steyr-Mannlicher M95 rifle.Nite this weapon used a clip as an integral part of the feed.It was not a charger which is disposed of after the rounds are pushed in,itdropped out of the bottom of the magazine when the last round was chambered.Mauser and SMLE ,Sprinfield 1903(which is a licensed Mauser)all use chargers.ONLY Mannlicher and the French Lebel-Berthier used clips(3 rounds in the LB)something of a disadvantagew because the couldn't load loose rounds.
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steevy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still looking for a cutaway of a Schoenauer magazine but I found a couple of external views.In the top down view you can see the button which emptied the magazine.You can also see the charger guides.


Last edited by steevy on Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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