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andy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you didn't hijack the thread, I think you got it back on track actually Wink. There are no pictures of the grips without the Amber covers off that I know of. There are some pictures where there is enough light going through the grips to get an idea of the shape of the grip frame. If you haven't already, make sure you download the photos from here...

http://propsummit.com/viewtopic.php?t=156&start=0

I know we had a similar discussion once before, but I was unable to find the thread with a quick search.

Andy
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propsjonnyb
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As there are no photographs of the original gun, I suggest checkingout Rich photo build albums, as that does show the handle and gun frame with out the amber grips in place ,if they aren't good enough then I would suggest getting hold of aset of Bulldog Schematics - if you check the schematics of the CA Bulldog , you'll see that the gun frame conections to the handle is a reverse 'L' shape , Rich currently uses a Bulldog Screw ( thicker at one end) for the top connector and a pin for the lower, strictly speaking the connector for the lower one, should be a screw too, Sidkt used four small flat headscrews top and bottom each side -what you want is a firm tight connection , I use a screw head fixative such as Loctite Blue to help and it also helps stop , the screw from 'threading' the hole, if it does happen ,use something like JB Weld or epoxy putty to fill , then just re-drill and re-tap the hole .
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SCOFFMAN
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:28 am    Post subject: RE: Laser etching/engraving Reply with quote

eltee wrote:
We have access to "perfect" models which we can laser 3d scan. We can use a real Steyr, a soft metal replica, or a plastic "master" from Rich. My goal is solid steel or moderately hard (T6, etc.) aluminum. I prefer steel as it will polish and blue like a real rifle.

I don't know anything about the limitations of laser engraving. If anyone has info, please let me know. Just want an accurate rendition of the actual markings in the steel.

While a real Steyr upper is available, it might not fit on the Coyle / Sidkit replicas without modification. I know the bolt was either reconfigured or, as some claim, replaced. So if I reproduce a real Steyr upper, the replica bolt may not fit. If I reproduce a bolt that fits, it is another item that has to be machined.

As soon as I get the first sample receiver we'll see how well it reads in the scanner. The machinist will see if the RHINO programming will create a good CNC milling program. Time will tell.


I know this is a somewhat old thread, but I thought I'd share what info I had on the subject.

With laser engraving you can pretty much do whatever you want in as fine as detail as you need provided you have the right equipment. I know you can laser etch wood and plastics with even a low powered 25 watt CO2 laser, but in order to etch metals such as brass and aluminum you're going to need a 50 to 100 watt laser. As to etching steel, I'm not certain that can be done with a CO2 laser in this power class. From what I've found on the internet you need a Ytterbium fiber laser to etch harder metals and since none of the vendors list any prices, I'm sure they are not cheap. The prices for laser engravers jump all over the place - you can find 25 watt units for $600 or so, but 60+ watt units can jump up into the $6000-$10000 range, depending on brand and features. The lasers do wear out over time so that is something else to take into consideration before buying an used unit.

Scoff
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First to answer the last question look here, about the grips being removed:

http://www.propsummit.com/viewtopic.php?t=2722

Second, I firmly beleive the gun was in a more raw steel state, as it rusted...

Those pictures shown are too dark lighten them up to see any detail in the shadows and Bingo you see the lighter Steyr Receiver as in the Worldcon Photos, it is not blued in them.

Compair the receiver to the Black side covers...


The Ammo housing and clip come in black plastic so all thet needed painting was the side covers and the grip frame.




Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I will add, as the Steyr Receiver is just eye candy and serves no real fuction, I suggest you either buy one of my models or the Tomenosuke Pros for the Other than Bulldog Parts you need.

And as I am now getting a run of real barrels made, I am also offering to build real guns for those that really want them under the conductions out lined here:

http://www.propsummit.com/viewtopic.php?t=2642&start=40

So if you really want a real shooter it can be done for under $2000.00

Rich
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hauptmann
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

racprops wrote:

Second, I firmly beleive the gun was in a more raw steel state, as it rusted...

Rich, you should be aware that bluing and even black oxide coating alone will NOT keep steel from rusting. It reduces rusting partly, but is not a rust-proof treatment. Anything that is blued or black oxide coated can very easily rust if not protected from moisture or corrosive elements.

Saying the steyr receiver must have been bare steel because it rusted is not a correct assumption.

I've made and worked with lots of blued and black oxided armour pieces and without a good coat of oil or wax, the pieces were constantly in danger of rusting. This is what makes blackening armour pieces very troublesome. If they do rust, which is very likely, the only way to remove the rust also entails removing the blackening.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK.

Rich
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propsjonnyb
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gun manufacturers normally electroplate their guns to protect then along with gunbluing and/or parkerization , a final finish of a protective sealer is normally used , I would personally recommend Jade Oil., for several reasons - it is used by gunsmiths and its readily available to us hobbyists , the finished parts are immersed in a bath (ideal) or wiped over with a cotton swab , then removed and left to air dry, once finished the parts will be water resistant to a good degree , a wipe down with a lint free cloth should keep the parts in excellent condition and an occasional re application of jade oil ( on a cotton swab, used as a wipe over) will maintain the finish and provide good rust protection for years and years .
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All well and good for real guns, but the prop gun is still not blued.

The pictures show that.

Rich
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joberg
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible that, just for the look, they removed the blueing of the Steyr. Maybe too dark or simply showing off the strange design and overall look of that science-fiction weapon was behind the decision...who knows? Many people had thought, for years after the film that the prop dept. had used a flare gun...now we know better Wink
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andy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Steyr may not be completely blued, but it is still much darker than the "Raw" metals on the gun. In photos of people holding the gun without a close up flash, The Steyr reciever appears almost black (or Blued) compared to the butt plate, and the trigger guard, also especially the bolt. There has to be an amount of bluing still visible on the gun. It is no where near a "Raw" steel.

Andy
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well here is my take on it:

As the prop as first presented to the director was seemly still all black, these two pictures seem to show it still having its original bluing, ( I now need to correct that....)

These two pictures suggest that, or are just too dark…and it might have been a lot like Classic Star Trek, when they saw in the dailies, the gun may have shown so little detail, (like the black and white Phasers in season one of Trek) that they asked to fix it to show up more on camera, because for the all the filming, the real guns parts, the Steyr and Bulldog show raw steel, their bluing was removed, making the metal lighter and brighter.


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hauptmann
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

racprops wrote:
All well and good for real guns, but the prop gun is still not blued.

The pictures show that.

Rich


It isn't -now-, but as I understand it, it was -during filming-.

I suppose what finish you want on a replica is dependent on what state of original prop you're re-creating; the original on-set condition, or as it is now, having been "restored".

I deal with this all the time in my historical armouring- people see things all "antiqued" in a museum and sometimes think a replica should look "old" too, where actually the original might have had a nice polish, be russetted, or heat blued. Those original finishes will often be removed by careless "restorers" or conservators who don't take care in retaining the original finish of a piece.

For my part, I want to have BR blaster replicas that are as true to what was seen in the film as possible. I don't car what the "restored" piece looks like now, because that might not necessarily relate to the film prop finish itself. It might, but in this case, I personally believe the original finish was all dark, steyr receiver and all. So I prefer my replicas to look that way too. But that's my preference.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use pewter black to darken the silver looking pewter to that of raw steel.

And I get a highlighted lettering as the black tends to stay in the low lettering, note that on the real prop this did not happen.

I think they chemically cleaned the bluing off and it reached down into the stamping and lettering.

Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Here are some pictures, consider that these pictures were lighted for the scene or for the over all shot.






When photographed with a person you get a darker looking receiver.



Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel that is was lighter, dull steel finished, stripped of the bluing.

The Bulldog was either stainless, parerlised, or stripped as well.

I really think I am running as close to on screen as possable.

Rich
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propsjonnyb
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to side with Hauptmann a little , when refering to 'original' finishes on metal, a gunsmith will blue or parkerize individual parts not a complete assembled gun , so each part - barrel, upper reciever, bolt end caps, gunframe, drum, etc would have been processed separately and each part would darken in the chemical bath according to it's own alloy mix , this is why there are shading differences on 'real' guns as well as replica's ,anyone who is proficent in surface coating metal will try to match by eye where possible , but you cannot guarantee a 100%match it's just not possible, but it does mean you can clean and retreat parts several times to get a close match and can 'lighten' parts as well , again that's what I strive to do when I parkerize parts and when I get real steel parts eg barrels I gun blue them properly.

It takes me nearly three months to process a kit of raw parts into finished pieces , that I can then assemble in to a finished blaster replica
most of the time goes into treating the pewter - polishing , plating and parkerizing just to get them just right , but each and every time I build one , each is slightly different that it's brother in terms of final colouration , I can never turn out two absolutely identical ones , I doubt even Rich can , but we can get really close !!!

I think the hero gun was polished back at some point, exactly when it's difficult to say , it was gun blued or parkerized, I think that's a given backed by photographic evidence , but any metal treated with a chemical surficant ( gun blue , parkerization to darked it with an oxide coating - which is after all protecting the gun from rusting), if polished with an abrazive metal polish, it will 'lighten' and the more you polish the more you'll get back to the steel finish and the 'brighter' the effect, the trick is not to remove all of the coating, as that exposes the part to rusting . This is what I do with my builds in most cases , unless the client asks for something different, but I always treat the metal to a final coat of sealer - normally jade oil as this works as a good rust preventer making the metal water resistant and gives the gun that particular gunsmith finish, which with care - an acasional wipe over with a lint free cloth and an sealer oil touch up every now and then - will keep the gun in pristeen condition.
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Noeland
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kind of curious which photos make you think the hero was parkerized. Or do you mean the original bulldog before modification? Again, what photos are you referring to?
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joberg
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the weapon specialist on the set new a few things:
1) There's only one hero gun.
2) The gun is going to be photographed in the rain (certain shots only, and the famous of them all: dropped on the floor into the water Shocked )

Conclusion: I'd better take great care of this prop 'cause if I f**ck it, Ridley is going to kill me and then have me fired

My slant on the story: it seems, and I could be wrong, that Rich is onto something, that the Steyr was of another tint of steel (just oiled and rubbed at the end of every take) or something else.
As I said before, it looks better on film with that "two-tone" scheme than to have a big black blob of a gun.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you know film, and how they can change it from day to night, check out the Zora chase, the gun and most of the set turned olive drab, I am told that is what happens when they darken a day shot to go for a twilight or night shot with the film changing color like that.

Sadly with all the dark and moody lighting the gun ended up nearly just a black something in someone’s hand…

Still take the prop as we know it and shoot it with the same kind of lighting, take one of my models and I think we will get the same look.

Rich
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