Original film gun in display case

[andy]

[andy]

After looking at the grips closer, I am almost 100% sure it is a Sidkit Worldcon grip. It matches on just about every point.

Andy

[Staar]

[The Loyalizer]

The grips on this seem to lack the same level of clarity that the worldcon one has. That is to say they seem more opaque than the worldcon grips.

But for the sake of what ifs, what if this is the one that's seen in the close up in Deck's bedroom at the end? It does have the slotted screw, where the worldcon has the weaver knob.

That would also account for Ridley's need to have the receiver numbers restamped.

Just a theory tho.
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"We began to recognize in them a strange obsession..."

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[andy]

I am sorry if I forgot to thank Rocketboy and his friend for sharing these pics. We do owe both of you. A large debt of gratitude for sure.

I do think it is still possible that this gun may have been the back up gun. Though we have yet to have been able to separate a second gun on screen, except for the rubber stunt. It does actually make sense that the grips may have been replaced by the owner recently to make it more displayable if the original grips were destroyed as he said. I would love to see all the parts and also very much Deckard's apartment key card. I do hope your friend thought to take pictures of that stuff too. This is some very intriguing stuff here.

Thank you very much for sharing it.
Andy

[Staar]

Here are the other pictures that didn't display properly:









regards

MARK
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[racprops]

This is fun…

Ok another note..the receiver should be raw steel, silver looking as is the Worldcon, IF they went so far as to recreate the serial number then they should have recreated the coloring…

And note how the end cap in the receiver does not color match the receiver’s color.

I am inclined to agree with Andy about the grips, one feature that has stood out is how the left side grips have a pointed end kind of pointing at the thumb release, and both this grip and Sid’s Worldcon grip do not.

And they when so far as to dirty the diamond pattern again like the Worldcon..this is funny again as A) it was dirt gotten during filming and B) this was cleaned off for the sale at auction..

I lean towards fake, or more accurately a forgery, as it is done so well.

Rich
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I never have enough time to do all I want to do!

[skual]

Only a little adjustement of levels in Photoshop and you can see a crude manipulation in serial zone. I think in person view this is obvious. Is curious de colour disbalance only happen to conceal this particular bad job.

For this and other little details i am 100% with Andy is a Sidkit with retouchs.

[DeckB26354]

At the risk of using expletives, I am going with Andy's understatement of the year, "WoW"!

Rocket Boy: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

There is so much to look at here and so many things to consider, I hardly know where to start. I didn't jump right in with my two pennies worth becuase I needed time to absorb and consider what we have here.

Let's start with the facts. Having built what I thought (up until now!) a pretty good replica I can assure everyone that these are original Steyr and Bulldogh parts. The ammo housing is most definitely the original plastic Steyr parts as well. I agree with Andy on the right side plate. This is not bad, but not that good either; damaged and a poor paint job. We can only speculate as to why.

The serial number has been changed. We know that this is an original Steyr and (as Rich correctly points out) no two will be numbereed the same. So why change the serial number. Only two reasons. 1. To pass this off as the Hero prop. 2. To make sure they matched on screen. Well, the problem I have with 1. is that this is not trying very hard to appear as the Hero is it? The wiring is completely different and has anyone else noticed that even the screws are in different positions to the Hero. If I made the effort to change the serial number I would certainly make sure the latch screw and side grub screws matched! So I think the on-screen accuracy theory holds up. Doing a close up (especially the panning down to Ratchel sleeping shot) could have inspired the need to change it, never mind Ridleys well documented attention to every last detail.
This is one of the things I really like about this prop, it's originality. It's not trying to BE The Hero.

However, having said that, there are some distinct features that match perfectly and I feel are very significant.

Pic 1. The cut of the underside of the receiver. Perfect.


Pic 2. I have to disagree with Rich. This copper band appears to have solder on it, just like the Hero. Also, note the shape of the design and the space between it and the screw hole. Not a Coyle or Sidkit. Mathes the Hero though.


Pic 3. This one I have only just spotted. Check out that small hole in the bottom edge. Again, can be seen if you look closely on the Hero.


Pic 4. As I said none of the screw positions match the Hero. Also, I am quite impressed with how close the grips get to the Charter Arms Latch. I never got anywhere near this with the Coyle or Sidkit grips.


Pic 5. Sign of welding, just like the Hero. I still don't understand what this actual is, because as we all know you can't weld aluminium!


Pic 6. Look at the rounded line on the grip frame and how it matched the grips. This is quality work, forgery or not, and is up the quality of the Hero. I tried to do the same but never got it this good.


Pic 7. The inside of the grip frame shows the same signs of aging aluminium as the Hero. I find this significant.


Pic 8. Again on this one.


Pic 9. Love this shot. It shows the real Amber colour of the grips. Also, something I picked up on after the first blurred shots were posted; the slight curve of the top of the grips. Unique to the Hero. Never seen it before or since (until now!)


Pic 10. This demostrates to me (I hope I'm not wrong!) that the laser pointer is in exactly the same position as the Hero in relation to the receiver.
It reveals just the same amount of the cut away or "recess" of the Steyr receiver. Impressive.


Pic 11. The most revealing shot of all. This shows another collar or washer on the inside that bends the ammo housing plastic slightly outwards. Rich and I spotted this on Karls photos a couple of years ago and couldn't really work out why it was there. But here it is again.


Pic 12. Here are the original wires on the Hero. Before that appalling job done by PIH. These look identical to the ones in the unknown prop pics. Note that they are one single collection of 4 wires. Either made like that or stuck together. The question I always had was the kinks or small bends in them. The new pictures have answered this question for me. These "kinks" are quite obviously where they came through the side plate. The first kink is it turning the corner on the underside, and the second is it turning the corner on the outside and originally going into the ammo cartridge. This is where I have to disagree with Rich. They are 4 wires together. The original Hero demonstrates this perfectly and those "kinks" show what they originally did. They were never seperate pairs running down either side of the plate. Why would one do that? I have an original still that clearly show no wires (hidden with tape or not) on the left side so that supports what the photographer was told. Also note where they have been cut. I would bet that that is EXACTLY where we see damage on the new prop pics. If you cut those wires and pulled them out of the inside channel and layed them down the outside, the lengths would match. I'm positive on this one.


Sorry if I have rattled on a bit! Nobody wants to be made a fool of but I think it is far more likely that this is what the guy says it is. Ofcause, it could be a forgery, but I think that it being a "back-up" is a more likely scenario, considering all the features. It's too good, but not trying hard enough to be a clone.
Rich picked up on something very significant too; the LED housings; Perfect. I have never been able to find 3mm or 5mm to match the Hero, and if Rich hasn't either, then they probably no longer exist! The ON/OFF switch and the way it sits flush to the outer housing. It's a work of outstanding brilliance if it's a fake! Something else nobodys mentioned yet; the laser pointer leds being powered from the ammo housing side screws. Is it just me, or does this makes perfect sense? They couldn't power them from the battery fitted, so they had the idea of feeding them from another battery out of shot as there was no more space to fit another battery. The solder marks support this. Perhaps, Ridley couldn't make the shot work or didn't like the additional wires showing. I bet it was the close up wall shot that did it; you can't hide any wires coming off those in that one! Still a really significant feature and one that I never would have thought of.

Also, the batteries. They back up the owners story perfectly. The original Mallory and then a very dated late 80's/early 90's Duracell. Is that one step too far for a forgery? I think it is for me.

[propsjonnyb]

That it's built on a 'real' CA Bulldog is a given , as others point out , the gun frame & the cylinder drum identifyers prove that beyond doubt , however, I do tend to agree with the discrepancies pointed out by Mark , Andy and Rich , I have examined the photos closely and suffice it to say that IMHO I think it is a combination build of old Sidkit and Coyle parts , for several reasons - The upper receiver - I don't think is a real Styer the main reason being the die stamps appearance and cutting a real Styer down to make it fit a CA is a tremendously hard job
(ask anyone who has done it already!) and to grind and re-stamp the serial no. is not an easy task on gun steel. The end caps and bolt arms aren't right compared to the KT photo's - the barrel looks like a CNC turned barrel which could be a recent modern addition, and the Left and Right hand shroulds have channel work inside them - especially for the wires for the sight rod, the ammo box is all resin and the main box has the (off/on) plate which early Coyles had !
The only way to be absolutely certain is to obviously look internally at the upper reciever - as a real Styer would still have the barrel thread visible and I can see no evidence of that as the photo's show the front cap fitting perfectly flush and tight - even if the front cap fitting on the Styer was ground away to enable a tight fit, a real Styer has one of the longest barrel threads and removing the end cap and examining the interior you would absolutely see that. The Weaver Screw and the Binding post are real ones , rare - expensive, but not impossible to buy as we all know.
I know Rich took a casting of a real Styer to start with and worked it to make sure all his master parts fitted , Sidkit copied Rich (that is a fact) as most of his model parts with alterations can be made to fit a Coyle and vice-versa, I have built almost as may Sidkits as I've built Coyle's to date and I've "Worlcon-ised " at least half a dozen early 2006 versions ( so have had to add the Serial number) and I've repaired a couple of Sidkits using Coyle parts in the past as well , so I think I am experienced enough to recognise the various parts when I see them .
The upper receiver is a very crisp and clear casting, however as Mark pointed out there are a couple of moulding lines visible so it could be a re-worked 2008 Sidkit upper recast in brass, again without being able to examine the gun it's impossible to tell , but I can say it has been chemically treated , rubbed back , treated again and re rubbed - this treatment gives a very distinctive patina and allows for the rust development as the photo's show . Comparing these photos to the KT ones does throw up some interesting questions - all in all , IMHO this is not the same gun as in the 'KT Worldcon' photos, if it is supposed to be, then it had been altered , ammended - call it what you will . Give me or Rich for that matter, or you Mark , a .44 CA Bulldog ,a correct Styer Rifle and a Coyle kit and a very large amount of money & anyone of us could make you a Blaster absolutely identical to the KT photographed hero or this one - you choose!

[propsjonnyb]

Just re-read all the postings and Yes - I conclude and confirm that they are indeed Sidkit grips , further you wouldn't need a separate power supply for the sight rod LED's as it 's a very simple circuit to make and to wire up power to the outside points on the lhs of the ammo box is positively ridiculous!

It not a welding job on the sight rod shroud, you can't weld aluminium!, it's a silver solder jewelry joint - Remember, a film propmaker didn't make the gun , a gunsmith did! Rich screws his rods to the shroud snd then superglues it to be sure, I suspect the gunsmith silver soldered as that's what most use effecting gun repairs - then gave it to the prop dept so the propmakers could made the mold for the stunts and as Rich has proved , you can make a stunt look identical to the hero - apart from firing, so that could be why all the serial no.s are the same in all the clips . The other bit of speculation is no film production would only ever use one, and only one, firing prop - it's a given that there is always a backup available to cover any eventuality eg breakages , missfiring etc and as we know there were additional 'spare parts' so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the props dept did exactly what Rich does and make a set of resin shells to fit around a blank firing CA Bulldog - it is possible I know - I've done it with .38 PFC replica's as my donor gun - granted the drum is smaller inside but externally it looks exactly the same and does work and I'm sure Rich would confirm that a blank firing CA Bulldog will fit inside his shells !!

[DeckB26354]

Yes I take your point that it is an easy thing to do NOW and make all the lights work. However, back then they didn't have the battery power. In some shots in the film not even all the Red LED's work! They never got the green ones working. So this make perfect sense (to me at least!). Also explains WHY the screws are there in the first place and the solder marks. Makes me wonder if they kept going with a back up prop to see if they could get them all lit up. But that's just speculation

Silver solder? Very interesting, thanks for the info, I never knew that!

[DeckB26354]

Also Rich, could the colour descrepancy between the receiver and the front cap be that fact that the receiver was blued and the front cap wasn't? If what the owner said was true about having it blued after he got it? This would surely account for the slight difference in colour?

I wonder if the owner has made a few additions to this prop to make it more presentable. Like new grips and a bad paint job on the right side plate?!!

[joberg]

Well, first thing first: a BIG THANK-YOU to Rocket boy and his friend!! Amazing pics for sure and fodder for discussion for months to come . I'm certainly not the expert here, but I've been a good student (underline student ) and from those pics and the de-construction of the various images and comparisons between a Sid, a Coyle, the Hero, etc one can basically come up with various options:

1) This is the back-up weapon (even rarer than the Hero) and Ridley asked the gunsmith to match the serial# of the Steyr (on a scale of 1 to 10 : 5) Not impossible but highly difficult and expensive (remember the high budget to build that Hero in the first place) and the end result of changing that #: different thickness of steel, different sheen, as shown on these new pics.

2) A forgery: sure, if you find an excellent gunsmith, with enough money and has access to vintage Steyr, Bulldog, battery (mallory), post, screws and knows the Hero pics by heart, makes it "rusty" enough and "clean" enough and doesn't try too hard to make a twin of the Hero...(on a scale of 1 to 10: 8 specially if you try to sell it as the Hero for $ 250000!)

3) Forgery by molding Sid's Steyr the right way (steel or other noble metal) Possible also and that's why many here have commented the fact that with the replacement amber grips (I know they fit perfectly) it looks like a Sidkit in certain aspects of the build. (scale of 1 to 10: 8 specially if you try, again, to pass it as the Hero).

That's it for now (my 2 cents)I'm anxiously waiting for Karl to chime in also (could it be a Tome or some pieces of the Japanese gun?) and to get side by side pics of this gun and the Hero.

Thanks to Andy, Staar, Noeland, Propjonnyb, DeckB, Rich and others...if I forgot anybody, I'm sorry in advance.

[racprops]

OK A few things IF some recast a receiver it would have to been mine.

A) The logo is perfict, B) the writing is also perfict
C) It had this on it:



Note the grips to the thumb releise as well....

And for the wires:



This is of course of the real Worldcon gun.

Note wires under and over the cover...

Rich

Darn pictures not work ...
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I never have enough time to do all I want to do!

[Nexus6]

[racprops]

Thanks Nexus6 for fixing the pictures...

What did I do wrong?

Rich
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I never have enough time to do all I want to do!

[Nexus6]

[racprops]

Thanks.

Fixed them.

Rich
_________________
I never have enough time to do all I want to do!

[propsjonnyb]

Joberg, I wasn't suggesting they wired up the gun that way, all those years ago , I can see the logic of trying to add a power feed to make the lights brighter, because we know from the film and articles that they had difficulty with the battery power pack to get the light balance correct for filming and we see that in the final edit of the film so yes the connections on the ammo box were there to add external power during the filming simply to make the LED's more visible and that is a fact.

Is this the backup gun ? No I don't think so - given my reasons above

was there ever a backup gun? Yes I do think so - as all the evidence and personally knowing some film props guys - all seem to indicate there should be a second gun

Is it a forgery? perhaps ? I think there are a number of members here skilled enough - given they could get all the parts and let's be honest here it is no more than $5000, who could build an undetectable exact replica - are they then forgeries ? No - only if they sell them for $250,000 a time

is it a remold of a Sidkit? - possibly - Sidkits were cast using a particular pewter alloy using a particular method that produced good clean crisp castings , so it it a recast? perhaps but without actually testing the metal I couldn't catergorically say , however both the end caps, bolt arm and upper reciever colourations are all chemical surficant effects - I can say almost for sure - as I can - and other have -reproduced them successfully .

Obviously, using as many real found items as possible lends credability to the claim, as the more you add, the closer you get to the real hero.

Removing the front end cap and examining the interior of the upper reciever is the only way of proving if the gun were real or not as well as testing the ballistics residue in the barrel.
If you use a real correct .222 Remington Styer reciever and cut it down exactly, where the barrel screws into the upper reciever will be a visible set of threads cutting at a specific angle, cut and depth specific with a specific number of threads showing , which do not appear on any Coyle or Sidkit upper reciever or any other Replica model ever produced and that includes the Tomenosuke Pro , unless you cut and cast from a Real Styer or unless you have access to an actual real Styer, and have machined it to fit a .44 CA Bulldog - it is impossible to fake or reproduce.

This is how you tell the real deal!!

You must have an intimate knowledge of firearms particularly the CA Bulldog and the Styer rifle to validate and confirm that the gun in the case is an original and a complete and intimate knowledge of the BR Blaster in all it's incarnations . What expert(s) did they use to validate the one sold ?? I'd really love to know - as they certainly didn't call me or Rich or anyone else I've ever heard of ?????