Metal Blaster Q & A

[Robotprops]

I'm done with resin blasters now and I'm moving on to all or mostly metal.

My question: What are most of you guys doing about the ammo housing and the side plates covering the cylinder and the bolt lever rest? Are you pewter casting or just biting the bullet and sticking with resin?
Thanks,
Tom

[Staar]

[hauptmann]

Based on my reading here and other research I've done, the side plates and the added grip frame were likely aluminum. With those pieces done in tin alloy (pewter), they add quite a bit of weight to the pistol.

I've recently acquired a Coyle metal kit and am going to try sandcasting some aluminum sideplates and cutting a grip frame from 1/2" alum plate with my bandsaw. I think this is how the original grip frame was probably made. Perhaps the side plates were sand cast in alum. from polymer patterns. Here's hopin'.

These two alterations should give me an accurate weight to the piece, assuming pewter is roughly the same density as steel, or close, so the pistol and steyr parts are of comparable weight to the original.

Jeffrey

[Robotprops]

Some of that is helpful. Thanks. I've been gathering bits and pieces. I've got some great screws and bolts. Here are a few of the larger items. The upper will be challenging as I'm not into spending $1300+ at this time. More to come...
http://propsummit.com/upload/816/imgp0224.jpg

[propsjonnyb]

It is debateable what the side shrouds were made of, but the ammo housing and base plate were ABS ( plastic/resin) as on the original hero , as confirmed here several times already , pewter is not as heavy as steel or aluminium, aluminium would be the lightest by direct comparison , and would, if fitted to the gun upset the balance , the left and right shrouds add only ounces as they are small and thin, so IMHO it doesn't really matter too much if they were cast aluminium or cast resin . A proper gun smith as opposed to a propmaker would work in metal ,a propmaker is more concerned with meeting a film delivery deadline so would work with what is fast, cheap and easy to build and disguise ( paint and weathering) and would repair and touch up any damage as filming progressed , so it is relatively safe to assume that if the prop makers got hold of the gun, it would have resin components fitted on it somewhere, as this practise is common place in the film industry.
We know that the Styer upper receiver was added mostly to disguise the complete working CA Bulldog underneath , we know the bolt and arm were not Styer originals but added for cosmetic effect and we know the butt-plate was altered to accomodate Harrison Ford's grip.
So taking all that into consideration :-
The Sidkit 2008 Worldcon is too heavy, as it is all pewter and if you want to be pedantic it's 'Scandinavian' Pewter so you can easily check the density, also the all metal dummy bullets add additional weight too and there is also a 10% difference in size as well, which also means more weight, so by direct comparison, it's by far the heaviest.
The Coyle Worldcon is closer in weight to the original with just the ammo housing being resin as well as the amber grips, a smaller bolt rod and housing, a correct two part gun frame and some zinc components and 'real' inert bullets all contribute to make the Coyle more like the hero in terms of weight but it is still slightly heavier than the original.
The Hartford and Tomenosuke , I have to dismiss in terms of weight, as their construction and material content is completely different to meet Japan's strict replica gun laws., so by process it is reasonable to assume the Coyle is closest in terms of weight and handling .

[Robotprops]

Thanks John. That is very helpful. At the risk of being excommunicated, I think I'm less concerned with building a screen accurate version than I am with building a "BR Universe" blaster. The side plates and ammo housing are really the only things giving me trouble here. I'm willing to cast the sides in aluminum, and possibly stick to resin for the ammo housing. I'm just wondering if there have been any great advances that I'm not aware of.

The aluminum parts and real gun parts I've got thus far don't add up to much weight. I'm sure once the upper and all the little bits are in play that will change drastically.

I've considered just "sculpting" what I need from raw stock, if Dremeling can be considered sculpting. Sand casting seems like the better alternative for the sides and it sounds like plastic housing is just a lot easier.

As a Prop Master and not necessarily a full time prop builder, I would like to have one that feels as much like a real firearm as possible.

[joberg]

Dremeling is considered sculpting like airbrushing is considered painting...all good in my book when the final product is concerned and not the means you took to get there ...That gun of yours looks like a good project to tackle and if it's BR World related the better

[propsjonnyb]

Obvously, the easy way is to buy a Styer and a Bulldog and do exactly what the gunsmith did !! but that's an expensive way, from the photo you could use a Coyle hammer as it'll match the triggers and it's zinc , sand casting aluminium is not for the faint hearted and I would suggest casting in silicon as an alternative, as you can get a high temperature compound that will work , and the detail will be better once the parts have cooled and you de-mold.
The upper receiver as you have said presents the biggest problem the basic shape can be CNC'd or milled or with a softer alloy dremmelled out ( anthough it'll take you some time ) , I suggest using a softer alloy, because you will have to die stamp all the markings on the upper receiver and bolt arm , they could be skillfully engraved but it would look more professional die stamped ,this is why both Sidkit and Coyle's are primarilary made from pewter its easier to work with, the only other way would be to make a wax master upper reciever and use the 'lost wax' process to produce a solid metal casting in one piece . The bolt arm and bolt and all the other pieces are relatively simple to make and a reasonable metalworker could turn them out ,and a number of our own forum members are skilled in that area and a number of replacement parts are available via the Props store pages.

[joberg]

I agree with Propsjonnyb on that one but for one phrase: "the easiest way to do it would be to get a real Steyr and bulldog"...I wouldn't call that the easiest way. To build that gun from scratch is a bitch, even from a gunsmith point of view. And as PJb mentioned, casting aluminum is certainly not for the faint of heart.

[Robotprops]

"Easy" is obviously a relative term. I've found a few Steyrs lately in different calibers ranging from .222 to .243 to .308. They all look fantastic, but they range from $1300 to $2000. Perhaps one day...
I've talked to a couple of prop makers that I work with from time to time and have been getting some great pointers. One is actually going to walk me through some methods that might suit my needs.

[hauptmann]

I regularly search for Steyrs. They're all over the place, but REALLY expensive, when one considers that you only need a very small part of it. And you'd have to modify the parts so as to make them forever unusable as part of the rifle.

Bulldogs are pretty available too and much more affordable, but shipping to California where I am seems troublesome.

Does Steyr Daimler sell replacement parts so you could get only the few pieces you need for the prop?

[Robotprops]

The receiver is the heart of any rifle and therefore the most expensive piece. Due to this fact, it seems that a manufacturer only produces as many receivers as rifles. I keep my eyes open in the used bits forums, but Steyrs are held in high regard as precise sporting rifles and well taken care of because of this. I have found many receivers, but no Steyr.
The few Bulldogs I've run across here tend to be the snub nosed kind. I could work with it and just make a barrel, but the snub are "prohibited" in Canada. I have a "restricted" license and can purchased pistols, but you had to have a "prohib." before they changed the rules.

[propsjonnyb]

You are quite correct and of course you only need a small part of the receiver , it is entirely cosmetic in its use on the hero , it performs no other function other than to hold the bolt and the bolt was fabricated again as they didn't use the original Styer bolt or arm. And I didn't mean converting a Styer to fit was easy , I meant getting the two guns was the easy part assuming you had the funds available .

[Robotprops]

I thought they used the original bolt arm. No? It looks very similar...
That deserves a little more looking into on my part.

[hauptmann]

I think Rich used a real Steyr bolt lever for his metal replica and it looks just right. It has stampings on the underside. But he should be the one to answer to that.

Why would the propmaker use a non-Steyr bolt lever?

[andy]

I am pretty sure the lever on the hero is the one that came with the same gun as the reciever. IIRC the markings from the inside of the lever matched up to the ones on the front of the receiver. I just can't seem to find the picture in Karl's worldcon set at the moment. It was bent though.

The actual bolt is totally different too, but some of the parts from the rest of it are Steyr SL parts, and not from any other gun. Interesting that the probe in the front looks like a firing pin, but it doesn't match the pin that comes with the steyr, even though it would be in a similar spot on the full rifle.

Andy

[propsjonnyb]

The bolt arm lever is a Styer as it has the correct markings , but the bolt itself is not a standard Styer bolt and was machined to fit the hugely cut -down reciever , Andy is right about the firing pin ( probe) peeking out, but again it's not a standard Styer, if you examime the .22 SL rifle schematics its quite different , again I would have to assume the gunsmith made both replacements to fit the reciever, since the reciever had an extensive amount of steel cutaway in order to allow the fit of the CA Bulldog , the original Styer bolt would not fit, so replacements had to be made if the bolt actions were required to be filmed. The 'Slotted Screw' if you examime the schematics, is off the scope fittings on the SL.

[racprops]

Indeed in my study of the cocking lever I found that the propmaker had bent the arm inward to have it hug the side of the pistol.

The arm off the Strye stick out more for a easier and faster reloading.

The bolt and pin seen hand made, and unlike the real bolt THAT DOES NOT TURN, rather the cocling lever turns on it, the prop gun's bolt is fixed to the cocking lever and turns with the cocking lever, the rear piviot being the screw inplace of the oringinal "round at battery" indercator pin and the front piviot being the pin though the front cap.

Rich
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